>>>>> "Ken" == Ken Hornstein <kenh@cmf.nrl.navy.mil> writes:
Let's see if we can open a few less bugs on this thread. 
Copying krb5-bugs and not including a bug number in the subject opens a new bug.


    >> Well, there is a derive-key for rc4, but it only takes keyusage
    >> as input, not a string.

    Ken> Hm, I think I'm confused.  I see where the keyusage gets fed
    Ken> into the algorithm in the Brezak draft, but what I don't see
    Ken> is anything that looks like derive-key for rc4.  Maybe we're
    Ken> not talking about the same thing.

I'm pointing out that there is algorithm that uses the long-term key
and key usage to come up with an encryption key.  It actually uses
long-term key, keyusage and data; this is against the intent of the
kcrypto draft but is allowed by the text.


    >> Defining dk interms of dr would work for rc4 if you had a
    >> reasonable definition of dr, but you currently do not.

    Ken> Maybe I'm being dense again (and not knowing much about rc4,
    Ken> other than glancing over the routines that implement it) but
    Ken> would it be reasonable to pretend for the purposes of rc4 and
    Ken> dr that the blocksize was equal to the keysize?  I think that
    Ken> would prevent the attack you described.  Or just keep state
    Ken> between calls to the encryption routine.

No, because since rc4 is a stream cipher you'll end up using the same
pseudo-random stream if I call dr with different constants.  I.E.  rc4
is a function that takes a key, some initial state, and a length and
returns that many bits of pseudorandom stream.  I then xor that
against the data.  The way the dr in the simplified profile is
definied, if I treat rc4 as a block cipher then I'll be xoring the
same output of rc4 against whatever constant I feed into dr.  So the
output of two calls to dr with the same key is related in a rather
easy to detect manner.

Ideally you want dr to be a pseudo-random function.

As I mentioned, there is both md4 and the data-based-keying of rc4
without confounder as a potential candidate for dr.  You could also
use the key that would be produced by the data-based keying as a
potential candidate for dr.